1. Use the four stages of demand in your revenue strategy

Most businesses set up their growth strategy according to traditional marketing, sales and customer success departments.

In this episode, we explore the four stages of demand which can be used to remove the silos in departments and focus on generating revenue for your business.

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Transcript

0:04

Hey, everyone. Thanks so much for joining our inaugural Breaking Down Revenue Gen episode. My name's Grant Greeff, I'm the CRO (Chief Revenue Officer) here at SearchKings™ Africa, and then my right hand, man behind the scenes, um, is KG. He's part of the team at SearchKing's™Africa and, uh, yeah, he'll, he'll make sure that he facilitates any questions. So make sure that you write down any comments, um, or questions that you have throughout. So let's get straight into it. So today in our, inaugural episode, it's around understanding Revenue Generation. And you know, this isn't just another, you know, fancy word. This has meaning. And especially now in 2022 and beyond how we did things in the past 2010 in the 1990s has really, really evolved at an accelerated rate. And we need to, we need to be present in what is actually happening. And we need to adapt both our teams and our businesses in such a way where we really can unlock the most potential, um, you know, in growth for our, for our businesses. And at the end of the day, you know, forget leads, forget MQLS or any type of acronym that you can think of, whether it be in the marketing or sales or customer success process. We really need to make sure that, um, it turns all into revenue and that's why we've, you know, chosen to structure this around the topic of Breaking Down Revenue Gen. And then in future, we're really gonna explore the practicalities in certain areas within Revenue Generation. So if we then jump straight into. What I'm gonna chat about today is the traditional breakdown of how we've done it for centuries. Right? In terms of revenue gen, then we're gonna go into the foundations in my view, when it comes to what is happening in 2022 and beyond, and then more specifically looking at the four stages of demand, which is gonna make sense shortly. All right. So if we go down into the traditional breakdown side of things, we understand that revenue generation has really been split into departments, into silos and we've called those departments or, um, or those areas, marketing sales and customer success. So as a whole, it's great. It, it really allows people to understand what lane they're in specifically, but in 2022 now, and looking forward, we really need to be a lot more detailed. How we describe, um, the revenue generation activities. And so that's why if we kind of go back now and we go to the fundamentals of revenue gen, it really is. First of all, the business imperative to generate revenue. Profitably as well. Right? So not just revenue, like many of these US startups, just, you know, raising funding and never actually getting profitability, but really generating revenue profitably. But. Revenue generation activities are linked to the demand for what you're offering. That's why then the focus needs to be on demand. Right? So more specifically than on the demand side of things, if we then look at the four stages of demand, so taking revenue generation, instead of looking at it, purely around the departmental side of sales, um, of marketing sales and customer success, split it into the stages of demand for what you. The first stage is the create and channel demand stage. This is where you're creating and channeling demand for what you offer now bearing in mind creates. So that's where you create that demand that hasn't existed beforehand. And then channeling is the existing demand out there. Channeling that to. The next stage. And the second stage is where you capture the demand. Right? And if you think about in the B2B space, a lot of the times where we capture demand is when someone fill out an inquiry form on our website, in the B2C stage, when you selling to the, like a DTC, like direct to consumer, when you're selling then direct on eCommerce law, as an example, that's actually happening instantaneously when they check. Finally on the third stage we've got where we convert that demand that we've now captured. And then the fourth stage is when, now, now that you've converted the demand it's, it's turning to revenue. We fulfill that demand, right? So I'm gonna go into specifically defining what each of these stages actually. So that you can start considering how this applies to your business or within your team. And whether you're a business owner, um, a man at management level or a Mo someone involved in marketing or sales. This is something that can apply to both B2C as well as B2B businesses. So if we go to the. Stage in the create and channel demand stage. This is defined as the moment when an anonymous individual consumes your content via distribution channel. So if we take this, um, in a practical manner, if you think about creating demand, I want you to think about it really along the lines of online and offline distribution channel. And so online distribution channels could be LinkedIn, right? Here's an example of, of, of a post that I've made in relation to Raven NuGen. Um, it's talking about the distinguishment between a customer and a con versus a consumer, and we need to actually define that differently. So online could be LinkedIn. It could be WhatsApp communication. It could be, it could be a Facebook group. It could be, um, you know, like, like a review on Google, right? For your business. All of that is. The online distribution channel, then offline distribution channels. That's then, you know what I would define as the let's call it the, um, traditional media, like newspapers, billboards, and all of those types of mediums. The key point here around the create and channel demand stage is we need to make certainly that when we are creating and channeling demand for what we. And a gentleman by the name of Chris Walker, um, from, from the us actually really defines the super well is he says that we need to focus on creating demand first at a category level for what we are offering. Okay. So if you think about it, like, um, if I use search Kings Africa, as an example, now we're, we're specifically focused. In the Google ads world. So we are a, you know, a Google premier partner we're focused on Google ads. We don't do social media management. We don't do, um, you know, Facebook ads as an example, the me let's call it meta, um, meta ads. Now the crux here though, is that we still can create demand for the category right. Of online advertising. And so within that particular breadth, We need to then as search Kings Africa. Now what we've done as a strategy is we're focusing on revenue gen, right? So revenue gen, because that then includes the traditional marketing sales and customer success, even though we're not necessarily going to, um, going to. Provide a specific product or, or, or service around, say customer success per se. We really wanna make sure that people see us as an authority and, and, and, and providing really relatable and insightful, um, content when it comes to the category. Right. Of say online, um, online. And so in, in saying, Really think about what category your business is in, and really think about how you can start positioning to own that category, or to at least create a significant contribution to that category, such that people that weren't even interested in what you're offering overall, not your specific product or service, but overall. They actually become aware of it and realize, Hey, maybe I should actually be looking at this solution to, to this actual problem. Now that, that that is, is solvable. And then people that are out there in the market, you're needing to focus then on channeling their demand to you, right. Or to your, your business. But you first start in trying to attack the category and then you then go to, um, what you specifically are offer. And so practically again, to give the you an example, I'm sharing in, in this particular LinkedIn post about customer versus consumer, how we need to create a distinguishment in there. Someone might find that really interesting, but they're not in buying mode yet. Right? They're not even realizing that, you know, they need what we're specifically offering and. Over time as they're consuming content that myself, um, breadth, the farm of search Kings Africa and whatever else. Um, you know, we're creating online if they're consuming that content over time. And then they finally start, maybe one post that I share is specifically around the, um, the fact that we've, you know, helped a client, you know, five X their return on investment when it comes to a Google ads. Then they realize, hang on, then clearly this is the thing. And they've been taken through the process for us then channeling that demand, um, toward our offering. All right. So then that's the create and channel demand stage the first stage. Then if we go to the second stage, which is capturing the demand. So the definition here, right? If we revert back to stage one, stage one is specifically around anonymous, right? So anonymous people. Um, we don't necessarily know them individually, but capture demand at this particular stage. Um, the, this is the point at which an individual takes action to provide you with at least one data point or personal information. This is someone DMing you. This is someone commenting on commenting on a post. Because now you of course see their full name as an example. This is someone filling in the inquiry form. This is someone signing up for your newsletter. This is all, um, these are all events and examples of you capturing demand. Okay. Again, the, the demand that someone has can be, of course, Urgent as in, I need this right now, or they're still in a discovery phase where you capture that demand through, say a newsletter sign up and then over time, they then, um, they, they then build in the stage in which they want to actually now chat with you directly. But I still consider those all of those types of examples as the capture demand stage where anonymous becomes known. And you now know at least one piece of personal information about someone that has engaged with you, um, via online or offline. And so if we look at it funny enough, in terms of B2C, so eCommerce stores, as an example where this happens, um, is actually it's capturing demand, can UN by someone signing a full newsletter or it can actually happen then where they have added something to a. They've created an account, but then they haven't really like exited and, and checked out and you know where that auto or the automation happens, where you message the person, email them, cuz they've signed up. So they've given you their email address. That for me is a captured demand state. Right. And so then they haven't necessarily now checked out they've I don't know something happened low cheating or just genuinely got cold feet. And so then what happens now is we wanna make sure that captured demand. As soon as possible or as reasonably as possible then is gonna move to then the third stage, which is the convert demand stage. And so if we look then at the, at, at the, at the third stage, which is now where we convert the demand that we've captured, we focus on that conversion. So the meaning or power define this is that this is the stage at which an individual contractually commits to buy your offering in exchange for economic. And so we know this in the B2B space, when someone signs say a purchase order or when they sign a contract or when, um, or when they actually EFT you, um, you know, to, to actually, um, begin to begin the, the service offering or the delivery of the goods in the eCommerce or the, or the BTC side of things, more likely than not, this is sitting where someone checks out, right. So when they check out, then it's completely fine. You know, exactly what's happened. Again, the B2B and B2C is different here where in B2B, more likely than not the situation is that you'll capture demand. And then the conversion of demand may happen later. Like the sales cycle may be very, very, very long. But in the B2C side, you'll find that the capture demand and the convert demand stage possibly happens immediately or in unison because someone's added to cart, they've checked out and immediately, so you've captured and you've converted that demand, um, with them checking out the basket. And so again, if you think about your business now, the, the crux here is that we need to make sure that any demand that you are capturing. Through your website through DMS, through emails, through whatever means, um, that's, that's practical to your type of business that you have a very effective and efficient, uh, conversion demand stage. And again, this is terminology now that we're at at search Kings, uh, focusing on, on, on standing by, uh, because it just makes practical sense in terms of the process and it still links and I'll get to it now. It still links them to the. The, um, the, the traditional, uh, roles in terms of marketing sales and customer success. All right. And then if we go straight to then the fourth and final stage, this is, of course, when we now convert the demand, now we need to fulfill that demand. We need to fulfill even supply that demand, uh, for what we are offering and for why they came to us in the first place. And so I define this simply as the complete delivery of your offer. It can be a service. It can be a, a good that you're providing or, or a mix of both, but fundamentally we need to fulfill that demand. And that then the natural consequence that you want to delight your customers in such a way where there's positive reviews that happen. And then actually then. Um, restarts the cycle where if someone's reviewing you, after you fulfilling demand to meet their expectations, if not exceed their expectations, you then are in a position where they're actually going to contribute right. Towards you creating more demand right in stage one, because then that is going to be, as we know, with regards to reviews, reviews. Um, one of the six persuasion, um, elements that we use within, uh, within, you know, marketing and sales, and that's a, that's a social signal around, um, someone else has done this before and they are recommending you. Therefore, if I'm looking at possibly exploring this further, well, that's a positive signal. I'm gonna take it seriously. And so those are the four stages. So just to re. We've got, of course the traditional form of where people focus on, um, marketing sales and customer success. But I think from an activity point of view, to make it more practical, it's, it's, it's better to look at then at, in four stages of demand for what you're offering, which is where you create and channel the demand stage. You capture the demand stage two, you convert that capture demand stage three, and then you fulfill that demand. And then that cycle can repeat itself overall. Now, if, if you're listening to this on podcast or if you're watching this, um, on, on YouTube or wherever, what you can actually look at now in, in terms of the, the links between stage one and stage two, as an example, that is marketing. So create and channel demand and capture demand, marketing. Between that, that links marketing links that right. And then you've got capture, demand, moves to convert demand, sales, links, that, and then you've got convert demand to full for full demand customer success links that customer success has to execute on once the demand is converted, it needs to now fulfills. And so, so why this is important to note is that we're living in 2022. Because of the, um, the, the nonlinear nature of how people are buying now and the, you know, the multi device and multi environments that we're, that, that, that we're, um, going through the process of buying. We need to then know that there is an overlap, let's say between marketing sales and customer success. And this then linkage between these four stages of demand, I think is, is a really, really helpful way so that you don't necessarily get confused in terms of, um, your team now because you most likely structured them. Um, in terms of marketing sales and customer success, you can explain it in a way for them to now know, okay, hang. Like, if I'm in marketing, I'm both assisting with capturing of that demand and creating a channeling demand. Right? And then in sales, they're linking with capturing demand and then converting demand. So that means that marketing and sales teams have to work together. Now, I think gone are the days where we, um, you know, work in silos. We are marketing as one set of metrics that they need to tick off and. Sales has one, one set of metrics. What the, what these four stages allow us to focus on is what really is important, which is revenue generation and the best way. If you're using a CRA, a customer relationship management software, um, as an example or anything, even if it's on Excel, you, you then sit in a position where you have a pipeline, right. A sales pipeline, and you're able to then calculate what we call sales velocity. And, and, and that's what we can do in another episode, but fundamentally what this means is that marketing and sales right. They are then, um, they, they are then measured, not necessarily on inputs. And a lot of the times they are unhelpful metrics. Like, I don't know, number of visitors to your website or. The number of, um, people that sign up, you know, to, um, to download an ebook or something like, is that really, um, is that really what they should be measured on? No, they should be me measured on the health. Right. And the trajectory of your, your, um, your sales velocity, which is of course the pipeline side of things. And so the pipeline of potential customers, as well as, as well as. How effective you're converting. Those customers is super, super, super important, and that actually moves the needle. So then if we place less emphasis on trying to manage the teams in silos, what allows us then to do is focus on really moving the needle and where it matters, which is our pipeline. And so if the teams not can align in making sure that they all are contributing towards that, giving you a simple example here. If marketing does their role in creating and channeling demand for what you're offering. Right. And they set a website up, if you're in the BTB space and they set a website up that really within five seconds, someone understands what you're offering, um, how it benefits them and, and what do they need to do to actually get it. And they've, and they've been given that exposure over time, around specific content that's relevant so that they, when they get to the point where they're inquiring through, say your website, When they, when they complete that inquiry form and you've captured demand, the person is more likely than not 70% of the buying journey. And so what this means is that the sales team, now that then takes that, um, takes that potential, um, or takes that opportunity. Now they are in a far better position because. The, um, the, the, the prospect is 70% of the way there because marketing did their job because they helped create demand for what you're doing and channeling that demand at the right time. And so if you think about it, then you may have less, you may have less leads coming through your pipeline, but the quality represented by the convert by the actual conversion rate of those deals is higher. So the net effect that we ultimately want to see is that your sales velocity increases because the quality is right. Um, and it's not necessarily then about volume. And so I think just in terms of the practicalities, B2B, this is super, super important. Right. And then B2C, I think it's, it's worth noting here. The fact that if I just remove this, so it's worth noting here. The difference, the fundamental difference then between a B2C business and a B2B business is the fact that B2C businesses don't have a sales team. So if you think that a B2C business, like a, a retailer, they can't run around and knock on people's doors. Like we, you know, did in the 1980s and nineties, they have to make sure that they create and channel that demand. And so that means that they need to create content that is relevant. That is useful. Need to create awareness around what you're actually really offering. And if you, if you, if you, if you, if you do not succeed at doing that, then no one's coming in. No one's coming into your, whether you are online eCommerce store or coming into your physical bricks and mortar store, and you can't now send out sales people to do anything. And so that's why I think if you're in the B2B space, it's very important to pay attention to how B2C businesses have had to do. Right. So they haven't had an option versus B2B. Now we have got a sales team, right. Or most part. So they have got a sales team. They have got SDRs or sales development reps, or they have got, um, um, you know, business development reps. And at the end of the day, if you start thinking, if you think about it now, like, like a BTC business as an, okay. Hang on. Imagine if I didn't have a sales team. Imagine if I couldn't, whether it be, you know, figuratively or actual physically knock on doors. Uh, using my, using my sales team. If I couldn't do that, what would I need to do to get the right content, um, to create demand and channel that demand in such a way where I could capture that demand via the website. Right. And, and again, speaking back to, um, what Chris Walker mentions around the, um, the category. How can you create demand around your category and then drop it down to around your brand? Brand actually now you, and it's not necessarily, you know, one, two, and then you go straight into brand. It's really, it takes time, but over time you should find then that people are naturally gravitating and being channeled towards. And that's when you use the mix of both organic as well as paid tactics. And I think just to give a final point here and then we'll get to, to any questions, but I mean, at search Kings, we've literally. We've literally positioned the business now for these four stages of demand. And we've realized that for our customers. So we've got over 200 customers, um, you know, in South Africa and actually, uh, in England and Australia and Singapore. And so literally what we've done is we've positioned our business going forward, where in the marketing side of things, how we're helping people creating channel demand, right. Helping you create and channel demand specifically using Google ads, right? We we're, we're focusing on being a master one, not a Jack of all trades because we know the complexity of Google and how it evolves. So that's where we've chosen to play, um, which remember includes also YouTube cuz Google owns them. And then the second stage of demand, meaning the captured on stage. We've now got our in our, you know, um, web web conversion design and development team. So what that means is that we're designing websites specifically that are conversion focused, right. To capture them on. Right. So, I mean, they use in an, they use the term, you know, conversion. So when you convert, you know, people on your website, but ultimately that state is a capture state. You literally capture that, um, that demand on your website or value your website. And so we're in our design in four businesses, small, medium, um, large, we're helping them design websites that increase the probability of capturing demand when it is channeled to your site. And then the final, um, the, the, the third stage around converting demand, we've recognized that there's a lot of businesses that, so you can channel the demand, capture the demand, and then they're just really ineffective or inefficient at converting that demand. The sales process is really, really flawed it's manual. Um, you know, kind of there's no, there's no technology being used. So people are, are really, really struggl. And so what we're done now, they we've actually implemented and introduced, um, you know, a CRM solution for them, which we call, uh, we're the channel partner in South Africa for, uh, part drive. And so we've introduced a CRM here because we know we'll need to help people around increasing the conversion of that demand. That's being captured via their website or, um, you know, or elsewhere. And then, then we're staying out of the full demand stage. Cause we're not gonna. Help them actually deliver on what, what they promised. We like, we, I think that would be stretching it a bit too far, but ultimately that's how we position the business around, around exactly what, what we're, what we're focused on doing. And if you think now about your business, I really encourage you to consider if you have really positioned your business to create and channel them on well, are you reacting? To the natural consequence of you having customers, those customers referring you. So you getting them the demand, just purely through word of mouth. And I will say that you never, like, there will never, like, there will never be an activity that will beat word of mouth. Right? So like, no matter what, and, and, and so therefore wordmark is gold, but what I'm getting at is that when we struggle. When we face economic recessions or when we are under pressure from competitors, it's because we've been resting on our Orioles around people are gonna refer cuz of the great service. And so therefore we have a shortage then of more demand being channeled to, um, the demand capture state. And if we have a shortage, that's when we panic, that's when we react. And my encouragement here is that like before, even if you're, if things are going well and lots of referrals are happening, you need to make sure that you, that, that, that you at least are considering, and then putting even small plans in place and tactics, um, being executed to at least, um, solidify a channel, um, a channeling of that demand that's coming. So, thanks so much. I hope that, um, um, kind of gives you a nice oversight overview in terms of, um, the breaking down of revenue gem. This is what we're gonna be using going forward. And I think at the end of the day, we really need to make sure that from a south African perspective as well, that we can offer practical advice around, um, businesses. So the next episode where we're gonna focus. Is, we're gonna focus on conversion design of your website. So we're gonna look, look at some practical examples around how you can design and optimize your website so that it increases the probability of you capturing demand. And I think just to. Draw distinction you have between conversion optimization and then conversion design. So conversion optimization is where, where you take your website and you just op optimize from there, right? So you possibly tweak the call to action. You, uh, tweak some of the, the copy that's on there, the headlines. And, and so that's optimizing and tweaking on what is already there. Conversion design, as you're designing the wire frame from scratch. And that's what we've developed over the years is a proprietary wire frame that we use when we design. Science that it's focused on capturing demand. It's not focused on winning, you know, a beauty contest or anything like that. Or you feeling HAPPI about yourself because yours looks prettier than your competitors. It's about capturing demand. That's our core core, um, you know, kind of objective when it comes to helping people in the design side, um, you know, of, of their websites. So if that makes sense, um, Kaso are there any, any, any questions that anyone has asked. Um, no grant, no questions in the chat at the moment. However, I did wanna ask you if there is any tips, right. Or practical ways in which marketing managers, or even people who run companies are able to break down those silos specifically with regards to like marketing team in the sales team, how are there, how is there a way to better give like in the synergy and a flow? So. To me. I think that at the end of the day, it's, it's what we measured on. Right. So you can't ask someone to you, can't ask the marketing team to, okay. All right. This is what we gonna focus on. Now, when you still measure them on how many leads you generated for us this week or this month, because naturally we are always going to, uh, move in the direction of what we are, what we are measured on and what our performances deem to. Uh, good, bad and, and, and great type of thing. So what I would then encourage, whether it be business owners or, um, decision makers in the business that have influence over marketing and sales, I'd really encourage you to, to look at how you have structured your, uh, your KPIs. And, and if you haven't really got any formal process in place right now for your teams that are doing the marketing and, and the sales side of. Think about what you have been naturally expecting of them. What are your meetings like in terms of your conversations? Is it always that you're bringing up the fact that, Hey, we haven't got X number of inquiries or, Hey, we haven't got X number of calls this week and if it has been like that, I think then that's at least a trigger for, or catalyst for you to now start reviewing. Okay. Maybe. What should we be looking at holistically for the team so that they understand their role, but that their roles are completely interdependent and that they can't operate in silos. They have to share. And so to give you a practical example here, what we've done from a customer success side of things. Is we've, you know, we've, we've asked customers, we've interviewed customers in informally, but we've, we've been asking them around, like what's happening within their businesses. Um, you know, currently right now what's the priority. What are the bottlenecks? Um, you know, if, if they, I mean, I love this question. If they could like wave orand then, and, and something would appear, what would that be beyond more customers? Cuz that's just, that's an outcome. And, and for me that really is, is, has been significant because now we've taken. Both quantitative, but more, more qualitative data around their feedback. And then we've looked at how we can optimize the sales process. Right. And we've looked at how then we can also position the marketing, um, you know, for, for a better execution than of us creating and then channeling them on for what we are offering. And I think, I think. Often we, we, we, we assume too much. So we assume most of the times of how our customers actually are. We come up with say, um, a, a customer persona and we say, this is our customer, and you've gone in and, and it's quite theoretical. And we haven't actually just gone to our existing customers and said, Hey, can you maybe just tell me a bit more about your business or, uh, what it is that you're focusing on? Even asking them something as intimate as, Hey, how, like, how did you find us? Like how actually, how did you find us? Was it through a referral? Um, and, and right now in 2022, how are you finding other services? You know, how are you looking for say social media management company, or how would you do this? And really trying to just jump into their psyche of how they make decisions. Will help you then position yourself better to create a channel demand and ultimately then capture that demand, which you'll convert more effectively. If you then understand and, uh, to give you an again, cuz to make sure that this is practical and not theoretical practically for our business, we've realized. So we looked at our, our, um, in, in the con, um, in, in our CRM. So we looked at then our, um, our one and lost deals. And what we noticed is. This may seem obvious, but again, this is now empirical data. It's not my opinion. It's not assuming we've got data to back this up. It's literally, we noticed that the, the, the deals that we were losing, um, like 90% of the time that a deal never had a decision maker. In the, in, in the first meeting in the first proposal called discovery core, uh, that would be lost like 90%, like minimum of 90% of times. That is gonna be a lost deal when I'm not speaking with the actual, uh, decision maker. And so we, we recently signed a business in the BTC space, eCommerce. The, the head, the, like the, like the marketing, the person head of marketing, they, she, she actually then said, okay, cool. Like, can you do the proposal? And I said, brilliant. Uh, just, just before we go on, is there anyone else, else that you need, uh, to, to, you know, to get this over the line and then she replied? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. My, my CEO, like I have to, you know, kind of propose this term. So I said, okay. You know, well, to, to kill two birds with one stone, can I maybe. You know, set up another call where I'll go through everything. You don't have to then be in a position where you're gonna be asked questions if you don't know, um, possibly or, you know, have to revert back. And it becomes super, super broken telephone. So can, can we actually set this meeting up? And she said, okay, cool. I'll try. And, and then she messaged me and said, Hey, cool, I've got the CEO. He's gonna come to the next meeting. And I said, brilliant. And then 30 minutes before she said, is the co does he really have to come? Like, can, can you not just give the proposal? And I said, unfortunately, I'm like, let let's reschedule then, because I really wanna make sure that this is mutually beneficial. And me, and, and, and we actually can ask the questions that are important right then and there. So she said, okay, fine. She went back, she convinced the CEO to join. He joined and he signed the next day. And so what, what a sales cycle would be in terms of that, it would possibly be even two weeks longer, 14. That thing was a three day sales cycle in total. And the best part is then that we know if someone is the decision maker, the probability of them actually turning into a one deal is exponentially higher. And we wouldn't have been able to do that unless we started asking and analyzing the data from them. Brilliant. So I think just a massive thanks to, you know, Charl, Johan, to Dean, to, uh, Mike and, uh, Natasha really, really appreciate everyone joining today. And if you have any other questions, reach out to me on LinkedIn, reach out to KG as well. And If you have any ideas of what you want in future, feel free to ask because we really committed to just sharing whatever we're experiencing. And, uh, yeah, from there we can, we, we can really create value.